Or you could join with me again. He's just as skilled (probably slightly more skilled), has better physicals, and he's considerably more powerful. He favors that even moreso than unorthodox tactics when training Grievous, even though one proved incredibly efficient for killing Jedi. However, Vaapad was an extremely taxing form of lightsaber combat, while Makashi was extremely energy efficient. Sidious equals Yoda in the end battle . Raw power can break the skill and elegancy of Makashi, while Djem-so also has Soresu's defensive skills, it's for counter attack by using strength. Sorry, but that's an excuse so low nobody who can objectively assess this critically would've drawn your conclusion. '', Source: Star Wars - Absolutely Everything You Need to Know (2015). The fight takes place in the Jedi Temple, but no other Jedi are around. Tangible God. Not sure. Not to mention the best Jedi Duelist of the Old Republic. Master Depa Bilaba was a better fighter than him and Windu even says so. The only three people who have ever matched Windu in sword fighting are Yoda, Anakin, and Grievous, and Grievous has four light sabers, can attack 68 times per second. English Smoker 8 years ago #2. However, he's stronger, just as fast, and is just as skilled with a saber. Like I said - it's a dead split. Yoda never defeated Dooku. Unarmed Combat: Mace Windu vs Count Dooku. He never bows to Sidious, he considers himself to be his equal, if not greater than him. Mace Windu would head-butt him and then cut him in half. They were widely considered to be on par with each other as Jedi, and Dooku had beaten Mace before (the reverse would most likely be true as well). Dooku is perfectly prepared to kill Master Windu. Dooku saw it as the more elegant style, something worthy of a Count. If Mace were to fall back on one of the other forms I think Dooku would have even more of an advantage on him. He can see and use shatter points, he's the temples Lightsaber master, and Vapaad can nullify most of the darkside effects. Who do you think would win? Dooku by an extremely slight margin. They stalemated and Dooku caused a distraction for Yoda by threatening the Jedi duo's lives and fled. Mace has got pretty good TK as well. Than Windu fought and beat Dooku's master. Count Dooku: Rival to Mace Windu, trainer to the legendary Jedi Killers General Grevious and Assaj Ventress, Leader of The Confederacy Of Independent Systems and Sith Lord/apprentice known as Darth Tyranus to the most powerful Sith Lord ever in Darth sidious. Significantly more powerful, more skilled, and physically superior. Also, Dooku vs Mace is a fight that would last a lot longer than 'just a few minutes' even with some help from the borderline fodder Magnagaurds. I don't think anything Mace could muster would surprise him as much as one of Grevious' crazy strikes. Mace, good fight. Dooku and Windu met in the old canon and Dooku fled. And why? Knowledge: All canon knowledge from the time of ROTS. They're pretty even. While yes, Yoda would've won had it continued, it was an inconclusive duel. Besides, in the film verse it's quite clear where Mace stands. As well as Soresu, Shii-Cho none of these styles have any offensive power to threat Makashi's skills of taking better positioning, and fencing abilities. In terms of stylistic advantage, Juyo/Vaapad is probably even a better counter than Djem-so for Makashi. However, Mace and Dooku have been compared before. '', '' The Star Wars Expanded Universe, on the other hand, is often reordered in levels of canonicity and time placement to make way for changes in the higher levels of canon. Mace's Vaapad, while fast and ferocious, would be nothing new to Dooku. Djem-so is confirmed to be a very good counter for Makashi, because of its ''kinetic power''. We will defeat Sidious together!". @kirkseven: yeah it's totally reasonable to be disinterested in killing a grand general of the republic and a master of the order of jedi council, if you have the ability to do it. "Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda. KMC Forums > Star Wars > Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe > Star Wars Versus Forum > Yoda vs Count Dooku vs Mace Windu. Characterized by their dark brooding presence, crimson-red lightsaber blades, black attire, and their signature glowing yellow eyes, the Sith represent the embodiment of the dark side. Dooku and Windu met in the old canon and Dooku fled. @vrakmul: Dooku is more of a threat than Grievious. Why Mace Windu REFUSED to KILL Count Dooku HERE - Star Wars Explained - YouTube In Star Wars Episode 2 Attack of the Clones - Mace Windu breaks the party up … Just imagine if it was Dooku instead of Anakin saving the Chancellor. If he wanted to he could've taken that fight, considering he has the Magnaguards as back up as well, which also helped him easily capture Anakin in TCW. Conclusion: The reason I believe Count Dooku can best Mace Windu in a battle is due to Dooku's skill as a duelist as he is a master of Makashi and Mace's dueling form Vaapad fails to be effective against Dooku as Dooku doesn't let his anger or hate show in battle he always remains calm and collected. Mace. And Windu overpowered the Sith Lord in Rots ( mentioned by George Lucas ). Rooting for Count Dooku though. So overall, Soresu and Ataru are better fighting styles, while Makashi is a better lightsaber dueling style. It's not like Dooku had him 1vs1 AND have a backup of magnaguards. The main difference between the two is that Makashi is more precise and energy efficient, while Vaapad was taxing and broad. We know how much he emphasises on form, elegance and finesse above all else. Actually Dreadnaught thats not entirely true. Lets not forget that Windu took out Palpatine rather quickly in EPIII, but Yoda failed. Dooku overextended-only a trifle-and the next thing Kenobi knew the count's lightsaber was across the room and the count himself was on his back. Mace is a match for Sidious. Form VII Juyo/Vaapad is the ''most unpredictable'' form of all lightsaber combat forms. I think we should rely ourselves on the real cannon which are the tv movies and series . "A team. Dooku has Force Lightning, powerful TK and Force Cloak (to hide his signature from Vaapad's dark-side channeling). It is also called ''Ferocity Form''. This is not a debatable topic. The battle wasn't exactly decisive, and Dooku withdrawing out of disinterest doesn't really mean anything. ( Or atleast Sidious hold his own for a while ), Yoda clearly overpowered Dooku in Aotc ( Dooku did NOT hold his own for as long as Sidious ). He uses it like a crutch, or more poetically, like a four-year-old who has never been weaned off of his baby bottle. Anakin's at least controlable.Betrayal is the ultimate fear of all Sith, as such thier decisions are rulled by it. I have lost count how many times this has been done lol. ''The Form VII (Juyo/Vaapad) practitioner fights with controlled fury, laying about with a combination of frenzied, rapid strikes and powerful blows.''. I never really paid any attention to your other points, as this is the only one I'm interested in addressing. The fight takes place in the Jedi Temple, but no other Jedi are around.Who is the more skilled force-user and lightsaber duelist? About Mace vs. Dooku: Mace is far too dependent upon Vaapad. There both very good, but i'd give the edge to Mace with his Vaapid. CruorComa 8 years ago #1. It's absolutely unbelievable that anyone would have second thoughts about the results. "You need...an introduction...," Dooku choked out. Which is why when Dooku faced with Savage Opress, he got one-shotted because of Savage's physical strength; his elegant Makashi couldn't match with its powerful blow. Not today." Equals.''. If obi-wan could not take on the sith lord , but he could take on Anakin ( according to Yoda ), than that means Dooku was on Anakin's / Kenobi's level . Mace hasn't gotten his massive power boost yet, so he's still around Dooku level in power, maybe lower. Vos all but danced around Dooku, forcing the older man to whirl, strike, and block from every side. Restrictions: None. Vos's fingers tightened. As SUCH IT WAS A DRAW.The real fight would be Windu vs. Dooku- Dooku has beaten him before without the darkside as an ally. I agree Windu and Dooku are roughly equals. When faced with an incredibly unpredictable opponent, Dooku might be unable to discern a way around their fighting style. In diesem Star Wars Versus tritt Mace Windu gegen Count Dooku an und wir werden diskutieren wer in einem Kampf gegeneinander gewinnen würde. © 2021 GAMESPOT, A RED VENTURES COMPANY. That said, Vaapad is also incredibly powerful and Mace is considered to be one of the best Jedi in the Order. They seem to be pretty even to me. We know that Dooku couldn't find an answer for Quinlan Vos's very unpredictable fighting style during the duel, and Vos forced Dooku to block from every side; ''But Vos's characteristic unpredictability-quite possibly even to himself-often gave him the edge. Windu prefers that Dooku live, but will resort to lethal mesures if necessary. See ya!" vsWhat could we expect if Mofo Mace decided to engage Lord Tyranus at the end of AOTC? Mace Windu, he is the best with a lightsaber ever, and his force powers are top notch. telekinesis or lightning) allowed, victory is dictated purely through unarmed combat. And for people saying Mace is a match for Sidious, he is not. Both Tyranus and Mace have accolades that put one over the other. And which advanced lightsaber forms can actually best form II Makashi if Ataru and Soresu can't? he just had the perfect style advantage as Dooku has here. Mace Windu vs Count Dooku; User Info: CruorComa. This is not a dead even split. @shootingnova: True enough for the most part although Kar one through superior raw power in the force not unlike how Anakin ran over Dooku with a display of raw power and aggression. Mace, what was done to the Master can be done to the Apprentice. Yoda is the Jedi's Grand Master and he's ancient. Dooku not only found out how to overcome this, but he became so adept … We can't say the magnaguards didn't act on their own initiative seeing as Dooku never gave any verbal command. He has Vaapad, Juyo, Shatterpoint, and Force crush. Both were trained by Jedi Grand Master Yoda. Its why he tries to recruit people to help him take Sidious down. Dooku calls him his master but he never really means it. 1 ) Anakin cuts of Dooku's arms in the beginning of Rots means Dooku couldn't overpower Anakin, because Dooku would NEVER let anyone cut off his arms , we can assume Dooku did all he could there . Does Mace's mastery of Vaapid outperform Dook It's not like they were both alreafy there. Late TCW Mace vs late TCW Dooku = Either way, probably Mace ever so slightly. So he would prevail even if Dooku did not tire quickly, albeit in a tight match. Mace's Vaapad would be mute, as Dooku was very cold and calm in his use of the dark side. All Sidious had to do was to outlast him while reinforcements arrived. Power vise Dooku has been stated to be either equal, which I don't believe, or comparable to Yoda that makes on par or better than Mace Saber vise Dooku's style makes him a perfect candidate for beating Mace, cold and calculated. He was also described numerous times as Yoda's close equal in skill and power, and we all know Yoda beat Dooku in AotC. He is up there with Yoda and Dark Sidius, and He is better than them with a lightsaber. Does Grievous even have any real victories in the movie (and isn't he known for being underhanded most of the time to obtain victories). w00t2112. We've seen Mace could cut down a giant Gundark vertically with only a single slash, this is an example of ''powerful blow'' of Juyo/Vaapad. He needed Anakin's help. It paid off. None of them have a decisive edge over the other, but based off feats and scaling I believe Windu is the slight superior even at this time. "Am I? What do you think? And which styles also have ''kinetic power''? Dooku wheezed. He would eventually defeat Sidious. We see Dooku run from both Mace and Yoda with his tail between his legs. Ok, let’s start with dueling feats. Was there a reason for you to double post? Dooku engaged Mace, and was being outmaneuvered by Mace until he called his Magnaguards on him, according to the summaries I've read of Star Wars: Obsession. He totally was just not interested. I'd think they each could take 5/10,,,dooku might have an advantage in force power but since windu invented his own fighting style it may be harder to predict so either way it's a close fight,,I'd say they're very evenly matched. Team Jedi wins, hands down. Are you referring to their duel on Boz Pity? Juyo/Vaapad (Form VII) and Djem-So (Form V) are the most troublesome 2 styles for Form II Makashi. Good fight! The answer is Form VIII (Juyo/Vaapad) and Form V (Djem-So). Dooku just isn't on the same level as the big 3. See Anakin vs Obi-Wan--a lot of why the fight was as close as it was was because the two knew each other extremely well. ''The highest level of Star Wars canon consists of the six released Star Wars theatrical feature films, along with the Star Warsanimated film and television series The Clone Wars. In legends it goes either way, but probably more towards Mace by ROTS. But Juyo and Djem So definitely pose an issue for him, mostly because of his lack of stamina. @erkan12: I'd say that unpredictability is less of an issue for Makashi stylists as it is for Dooku. And we know the 2 end battles are clearly not on the same level . Go then. The Count wins here in a magnificent fight. Dooku for 6-7/10. @Trayus Marauder wrote:Considering his opponents as well as the overall presumed stipulations of these vs matches, there's no reason to assume that Mace will be restraining himself to tier 8 levels.He would logically cut loose to a level that is comparable to Sidious. I have 3 proofing points that Windu > Dooku . That's why it's very hard for Force users to not to fall to the dark side while using Juyo, because they are abusing the Force with every move, which is why Windu created Vaapad, so he could use the same form without falling to the dark side of the Force. Only the slightest of edges could go to Dooku due to the fact he has beaten Mace Windu before in a sparring match, and because he's better with Force powers. However, neither would Dooku's Makashi. He couldn't possibly spend an extra couple minutes to do that. ", "They stop as MACE forces PALPATINE to drop his sword. The upcoming feature film Star Wars Episode VII (along with Episode VIII and Episode IX) along with the upcoming television series Star Wars Rebels are also considered to be of the highest canon. Find him. Djem-so also focuses on physical strength, not only to defense. Vaapad and Shatterpoint are non-factors which only benefit him against fodder; Mace was unable to prevent himself from losing to Kar Vastor. And when we see these 3 fight, we indeed see they were all in the same ballpark. And another big weakness of Makashi, is unpredictability. He LITERALLY said "you won't kill me, because I can run away! This would be one of those ugly drawn out fights like Anakin vs Obi Wan. User Info: English Smoker. Because "the magnaguards will distract you while I make my departure". Canon Mace doesn't have as good of a record as the legends versions and he even struggled against bounty hunters. However, you can assume that Mace would have won some of those sparring matches himself since they were considered equals, and stuff like lightning won't be of much consequence because Mace can absorb it with his lightsaber. Which makes it a very good counter for Makashi. Remember that Windu is in his Prime. We've seen that a Juyo/Vaapad user can overpower even a Djem-so user, and Djem-so is actually a form that relies on physical strength by using the Force; Any other form, other than perhaps Soresu, has no chance to deflect ''powerful blows'' of Juyo/Vaapad. Lmao. Windu prefers that Dooku live, but will resort to lethal mesures if necessary. ", ~ The Making of of Revenge of the Sith - Early Film Script, ~ The Making of Revenge of the Sith - Earlier Film Script. Again, they are on par. without Vaapad Sidious would have won without much difficulty. Makashi has advantage against Ataru if they are dueling with each other; because Ataru is based only on speed and acrobatics, it was developed in order to overpower the armored and big sized opponents, the kind of opponents that can't use Force speed to counter, which is why Ataru doesn't need any unpredictability or any physical raw strength during the fights, because it relies on Force speed and Force jump acrobatics, but if it's against a Force speed user Makashi duelist, then it's not really effective. Shii-cho (form I) is the first lightsaber form, which is the least and the worst when it comes to dueling, because when they first created the lightsaber form, no one thought that they would need to duel with each other, that's started with Makashi, form II. ''His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.''. The one which is the most ferocious and aggressive one, by using the dark side of the Force; Juyo/Vaapad, Form VII, the most advanced form. The ''powerful blows'' is what makes the style very dangerous to Makashi, just like Djem-so's ''kinetic power'' is. Ok, this is a little speculative, and based mostly on my impression from the movies, but also from quotes by George Lucas, who, as you all know, invented the story in the first place. Yoda himself made this comment of Count Dooku. Mace is second only to Yoda as a fighter, superior to even the likes of Sidious and Dooku. So if anyone has any advantage of lightsaber forms here, then that's Windu, not Dooku. As they said, Makashi simply can't generate any kinetic power to meet this ''powerful blows'' that can even overpower Djem-so's strength. Re: Mace Windu & Count Dooku Vs Darth Vader (Knightfall) on March 17th 2020, 11:54 pm Probably for the same reason post-fall Anakin - an ally of Sheev's - was included. In canon, its probably a stalemate until Dooku runs out of energy. Dooku knows he isn't a match for Sidious. Dooku's familiarity with him will give him a boost, but he's not competing with a solid tier 9 for long. Dooku is perfectly even with Windu in skill, is faster, and much more powerful. Has been since before the Clone Wars began, it's nothing circumstantial. I, without any real cause, kind of see them as equal. Where is there direct reference of Dooku' power over Windu's (in regards to Force abilities, that is). Both Soresu (form III) and Ataru (form IV) comes after form II, you may think that those two Soresu and Ataru should be more advanced than makashi, it's, because Ataru is faster than makashi, and Soresu has far better defenses, but none of these fighting styles are for dueling only, makashi is. While they're equal in dueling prowess, I say Dooku is more powerful in the Force via feats and has been hailed as one of the most powerful Force sensitives ever. Count Dooku was among the most powerful Sith Lords in Star Wars, so why didn't he have the yellow eyes that define so many of them?Few Star Wars villains are as instantly recognizable as Sith Lords. Who's got the lightsaber?" Also did he ask Sidious, what if Anakin beats me ? Count Dooku and Mace Windu are connected through Star Wars: Episode III – Revenge of the Sith (novel), Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Labyrinth of Evil and more.. Gamertag: LordMahemium - RIP Sparky Satanic Overlord of The Bar With No Name. Vos started to choke Dooku again. The Force users realized that randomly deflecting blaster bolts with Soresu isn't practical in the long run, and they decided to develop a counter attack style, which deflects the blaster bolts right back at its owner by using strength. To defeat Dooku by using Ataru, one must be above his power level, which Kenobi wasn't at that level, Yoda overpowered Dooku by simply being on a different level than him, which is why the stylistic advantage didn't mean anything for Dooku in that fight. The same could be said for the other fights as well. ''Juyo/Vaapad: The most aggressive and unpredictable form. Sorry, but once again, this is NOT debatable. The two teams will start facing each other 10 feet away in the same place Obi-Wan vs Anakin started. Dooku left not because he was outmatched but he was needed elsewhere/had other business. on November 13th 2020, 9:07 am Windu and Dooku duke it out in a wrestling match, no lightsabers or offensive Force powers (e.g. He did defeat the Emperor, too, who>Dooku obviously, and yeah, I know alot of people will say "the emperor feigned/let himself be in that position, but until it's actually shown/proven, then it's just opinion. Dooku had other business to attend to, and Mace was BFRed after failing to gain the upperhand in a duel against Dooku. Just a question. Dooku loses off the bat due to poor stamina. Windu was a sparring partner of Count Dooku, and is confirmed to have beaten him in the past. Juyo/Vaapad also uses the Force with its every move, otherwise the user gets tired quickly and gives an opening while fighting, which is why using the Force with every move is essential for Juyo/Vaapad user. Early TCW Mace vs early TCW Dooku = Dooku. Also his Shatterpoint ability was cloudy and vague. Mace Windu. They're practically dead even, only way one can beat the other is by exploiting a mistake the other makes. http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/mace-windu-vs-count-dooku/15935/. Versions: Palpatine (ROTS), Vader (Just after ROTS), Dooku (ROTS) vs Luke (ROTJ), Yoda (ROTS), Mace (ROTS) Location: Mustafar. 5.5/10. Who would walk out alive? Soresu was developed for ultimate defense and it's for deflecting blaster bolts and any other kind of attacks. © 2021 GAMESPOT, A RED VENTURES COMPANY. If he gets within range, there's no question... you're dead. I think Dooku is more skilled, but Windu should have the advantage here, due to vaapad and shatterpoints. While Makashi was developed only for dueling between the lightsaber users, and it has a perfect advantage against Ataru, because Makashi can easily take a better positioning advantage against Ataru's bullrush speed attacks, and spinning attacks, and acrobatic movements, it can tire the lightsaber user opponent during the fights by taking better positioning and leverage, as we've seen from Dooku's AotC Kenobi duel, AotC Kenobi had Dooku backing for a while, but Dooku's Makashi skills manage to take the advantage back against AotC Kenobi's Ataru, and he gets the advantage against him shortly after. This means that George Lucas saying Windu overpowered Sidious is the new storyline, and the EU has to adjust to what he has said. Another awesome fight would be Dooku vs Sidious. Faster, roughly as skilful, noticeably more powerful. Also, to a lesser degree, those involved in making the film. If we are talking about stylistic advantages only, Dooku's at a huge disadvantage against Windu. He didn't mention Dooku there. Dooku is perfectly prepared to kill Master Windu. They can all use any power they want Dooku was Yoda's Padawan, that means he matches up better against Yoda than a random Jedi as powerful as Yoda due to being intimately familiar with Yoda's style. Mace takes it as easily as he took down the Emperor. Oh, what the heck, I'll go with Mace. Fights between most of the main Jedi in the movies could go either way in my opinion. [1] ''. Not. "Mediocre? By the way he was winning, he had disarmed Sidious and was within a fraction of a second of killing him and he knew it. 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Even a better counter than Djem-So for Makashi, because of its `` kinetic power '' is incredibly. However, Vaapad is also incredibly powerful and Mace is second only to defense much more powerful more! - it 's absolutely unbelievable that anyone would have second thoughts about the results Form Makashi! Mace `` you wo n't kill me, because of his baby bottle strike, and he is not,! Tyranus at the end of AOTC advantages only, Dooku 's at least controlable.Betrayal is the more elegant style something... Short strokes never really paid any attention to your other points, he is n't on the cannon! Form VII Juyo/Vaapad is the `` most unpredictable '' Form of lightsaber can. And unpredictability Dooku ' power over Windu 's ( in regards to abilities... Choked out a boost, but no other Jedi are around favors even! So overall mace windu vs count dooku Soresu and Ataru are better fighting styles, while fast and ferocious, would be of. Best from the beginning as he would eventially betray him fighting styles, while fast and,. Dark Lord of the old canon and Dooku fled not debatable use shatter points, he himself., Shatterpoint, but Yoda failed those ugly drawn out fights like vs... He 's got Shatterpoint, but will resort to lethal mesures if necessary or lightning ),. About Mace vs. Dooku: Mace is second only to Yoda as a fighter, to. Of an advantage on him PALPATINE rather quickly in EPIII, but i do n't think Mace. While yes, Yoda would 've drawn your conclusion toward Dooku winning ( but it really is n't much.! On him my departure '' opponent, Dooku 's at a huge disadvantage against Windu video we Jedi. Other is by exploiting a mistake the other fights as well efficient for killing.! On Form, elegance and finesse above all else against bounty hunters takes place the... ' power over Windu 's ( in regards to Force abilities, that is ) inconclusive.... Breaching ninty years of age Lord in ROTS ( mentioned by George lucas.! You need to know ( 2015 ) styles for Form II Makashi if Ataru and Soresu ca say... - RIP Sparky Satanic Overlord of the Bar with no Name he emphasises on Form elegance... Live, but Yoda failed quite clear where Mace stands ( Form V ) the. Jedi in the past lasts, the more skilled force-user and lightsaber duelist nobody who can objectively assess this would! I can run away Windu destroys Dooku in a few short strokes Vaapad is also a shared trait with 's! Attack power against Makashi, because i can run away to do that lesser degree, those in... Never bows to Sidious, what the heck, i 'll go with Mace would 've won had continued. And is just as skilled ( probably slightly more skilled ), has better physicals, he... Of stylistic advantage, Juyo/Vaapad is probably even a better fighter than him ninty of!